Here is my original post: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=10406&p=64938#p64938
While I could probably do a better job explaining my symptoms, that link pretty much gives the reader a good summary of what I am doing to manage my pudendal neuralgia/whatever: pelvic floor therapy, hot bathes, stretching, gluten free diet, nothing tight around my waist, and do not push myself physically. Although it sinks to refrain from things I previously enjoyed doing, I am doing much better than I ever thought possible.
My symptoms have always been a bit strange. First, I am the only person I know of that has to take an alpha blocker to be able to urinate effectively. In fact, it has to be the brand name Rapaflo; the generic, Silodosin, is the bane of my existence because insurance companies want me to take it, yet it does not work for me at all. Next, it seems like most people suffer more from most PN symptoms than I do minus one or two: my pelvic pain from wearing anything tight around my waist and AFTER sex [it works great during] is really really painful. Recently, I would add that I have a lot of pain if I bend my hips in an athletic/yogaish position in any serious manner. This will be important in a second. Also, I have an L5/S1 protruding disk that out dates my PN-like symptoms by at least 5 years. Finally, I had an umbilical hernia, several small inguinal hernias, two nerve entrapment wrapped around my spermatic cord on both sides, and a crooked tailbone all fixed in previous surgeries.
I recently made a decision to stop working full-time in an attempt to go back to school, which downgraded my health insurance. It really did not matter since I do not go to a doctor very much and have gone over a year without seeing a pelvic floor therapist before. After doing some internet research, I found a person who presented themselves as a pelvic floor therapist in my network. While I do not want to trash this person, they indeed possessed the skills to perform pelvic floor therapy. Their hubris, however, led them to the conclusion they could fix me by prescribing more traditional physical therapy/yoga type work outs. The first session was almost exclusively pelvic floor therapy, the second was a mix between pelvic floor therapy and traditional physical therapy, and the third and final session was almost exclusively traditional physical therapy. Although I found the vast majority of things therapeutic this person advised me to do, enough of them irritated my nerve to the point I start burning, like the good ole days, about 4 or 5 days after seeing them.
Although I was in agony for a week or so, I am grateful for this experience, in hindsight, for diagnostic reasons. The pain I felt after this session was very high in my butt, almost going into my back, extending to the place where my butt meets my hips. From my internet research, based off my limited knowledge of anatomy, I am pretty much sure the pain is coming from one of the branches of my cluneal nerve. In prior years, I would have felt pain everywhere but it apparently has localized due to my hard work and past surgeries; I have been dealing with this for nine years now. This has led me to reconsider the prospect of sciatica-like symptoms that will probably lead to the frightening suggestion of spinal fusion surgery. This desire to go down the back surgery road was increased when I found an old Lumbar Myelogram Injection Report that stated "there is potential for irritation or impingement of the exiting left L5 nerve root.
Like many of you, and probably the premise for this site, I try to do internet research to see if I can figure out what the heck is wrong with me. Recently, I Googled something like "pain when rotating hips." This led me to discover "piriformis syndrome." Besides the obvious pain when binding your hips, it sounds like a possibility because some symptoms of it seem to sound a bit like PN symptoms while others are more back-like symptoms. Trying to separate my PN issues from my back issues has been extremely hard this entire time. It also explains why I sometimes have almost no pain and sometimes it is very very acute. It also helps that I would not need spinal fusion to treat piriformis syndrome!
One thing I am curious about is can piriformis syndrome cause problems with urination? When this first started all those years ago, I initially thought I had "cauda equina syndrome." Although I do not have it, I am always on the lookout for something similar because of the Rapaflo element of my issues. Alpha-blockers are designed for people with enlarged prostates because this enlargement puts pressure on their bladder; the alpha-blocker loosens the prostate in order to reduce its sizes, which takes pressure off the bladder. Since I do not have an enlarged prostate, something else could potentially be pushing on my bladder. While I cannot prove it, the back seems like the most likely candidate. This remains especially true if a back nerve can explain my nerve pain.
Anything is possible with these PN-like symptoms, yet I would appreciate any feedback in regards to this matter. While I doubt anything is a "total cure," I am very thankful that each of my four surgeries has reduced some of my pain.
Piriformis Syndrome?
Re: Piriformis Syndrome?
The symptoms I get with piriformis syndrome are sort of a combination of numbness/pain in the butt cheek about 2 inches above the sit bone when I'm sitting. (Between the sit bone and SI joint when sitting). It can feel like sciatica when the piriformis muscle is pressing on the sciatic nerve. Using a 2 channel TENS unit over the piriformis muscle a couple of hours a day was really helpful to me.
I was just reading about rapaflo and it looks like one of the mechanisms for how it works is that it relaxes the muscles in the prostate and bladder neck. The pudendal nerve innervates the external bladder sphincter. Just thinking about it logically, if your pudendal nerve is irritated, since it innervates one of the sphincters and the muscles around the bladder, it could cause them to be in spasm, making it more difficult to urinate. Difficulty with urination is a pretty common PN symptom.
The internal urethral sphincter is innervated by some of the spinal nerves. So whether your symptoms are caused by pathology in the spine or an irritated pudendal nerve is really hard to say. You can check out which spinal nerves innervate the internal sphincter. I don't think L5 is one of them.
Violet
I was just reading about rapaflo and it looks like one of the mechanisms for how it works is that it relaxes the muscles in the prostate and bladder neck. The pudendal nerve innervates the external bladder sphincter. Just thinking about it logically, if your pudendal nerve is irritated, since it innervates one of the sphincters and the muscles around the bladder, it could cause them to be in spasm, making it more difficult to urinate. Difficulty with urination is a pretty common PN symptom.
The internal urethral sphincter is innervated by some of the spinal nerves. So whether your symptoms are caused by pathology in the spine or an irritated pudendal nerve is really hard to say. You can check out which spinal nerves innervate the internal sphincter. I don't think L5 is one of them.
Violet
PNE since 2002. Started from weightlifting. PNE surgery from Dr. Bautrant, Oct 2004. Pain now is usually a 0 and I can sit for hours on certain chairs. No longer take medication for PNE. Can work full time and do "The Firm" exercise program. 99% cured from PGAD. PNE surgery was right for me but it might not be for you. Do your research.
Re: Piriformis Syndrome?
Thank you for the response! You are a heck of a resource.
That definitely sounds similar to my major problem. Does it hurt where the butt curves and meets the hip?Violet M wrote:The symptoms I get with piriformis syndrome are sort of a combination of numbness/pain in the butt cheek about 2 inches above the sit bone when I'm sitting. (Between the sit bone and SI joint when sitting). It can feel like sciatica when the piriformis muscle is pressing on the sciatic nerve. Using a 2 channel TENS unit over the piriformis muscle a couple of hours a day was really helpful to me.
Maybe so, but I hold maybe a 10% hope I do not have PN. It seems like my pain is wider on my body and less severe than most people. If I just wear shorts, I am comfortable 99.9% of the time. It sounds like some people on this site, God bless them, are almost bed ridden.Violet M wrote:I was just reading about rapaflo and it looks like one of the mechanisms for how it works is that it relaxes the muscles in the prostate and bladder neck. The pudendal nerve innervates the external bladder sphincter. Just thinking about it logically, if your pudendal nerve is irritated, since it innervates one of the sphincters and the muscles around the bladder, it could cause them to be in spasm, making it more difficult to urinate. Difficulty with urination is a pretty common PN symptom.
Although I do not understand the internal and external distinction that well, the rest of your statement summarized my dilemma this entire time. While I have these disk problems, none of the nerves that service the pudendal nerve go that low. I think it is L3, maybe L4? If I have some sort of cluneal nerve/piriformis syndrome problem, then those nerves, potentially, go that low. If I can some treatment for that, then maybe I can prove I don't have PN/have a milder version of it/I have a problem with my bladder muscle rather than PN, as at least two urologists have told me my bladder muscle does not work correctly when rotating between urination and semen production. The problem is, however, most treatments of L5 nerve roots, or anything similar, lead to spinal fusion.Violet M wrote:The internal urethral sphincter is innervated by some of the spinal nerves. So whether your symptoms are caused by pathology in the spine or an irritated pudendal nerve is really hard to say. You can check out which spinal nerves innervate the internal sphincter. I don't think L5 is one of them.
Re: Piriformis Syndrome?
For piriformis syndrome - yes. Especially when I'm sitting.cwb125 wrote: Does it hurt where the butt curves and meets the hip?
It would be great if you don't have PN. Since you are comfortable most of time, it seems pretty risky to do anything invasive because you sure wouldn't want to get worse.cwb125 wrote: I hold maybe a 10% hope I do not have PN. It seems like my pain is wider on my body and less severe than most people. If I just wear shorts, I am comfortable 99.9% of the time.
The PN comes off of S2, S3, and S5. You can potentially have a radiculopathy higher up in the spine that causes similar symptoms as PN, so it can be a bit of a trick determining where the pain is originating from. That's why diagnostics, imaging, history, and clinical exam are all so important to take into account.cwb125 wrote: While I have these disk problems, none of the nerves that service the pudendal nerve go that low. I think it is L3, maybe L4? If I have some sort of cluneal nerve/piriformis syndrome problem, then those nerves, potentially, go that low. If I can some treatment for that, then maybe I can prove I don't have PN/have a milder version of it/I have a problem with my bladder muscle rather than PN, as at least two urologists have told me my bladder muscle does not work correctly when rotating between urination and semen production. The problem is, however, most treatments of L5 nerve roots, or anything similar, lead to spinal fusion.
PNE since 2002. Started from weightlifting. PNE surgery from Dr. Bautrant, Oct 2004. Pain now is usually a 0 and I can sit for hours on certain chairs. No longer take medication for PNE. Can work full time and do "The Firm" exercise program. 99% cured from PGAD. PNE surgery was right for me but it might not be for you. Do your research.
Re: Piriformis Syndrome?
Man, I wish you were a doctor because we are on the same page.Violet M wrote:For piriformis syndrome - yes. Especially when I'm sitting.cwb125 wrote: Does it hurt where the butt curves and meets the hip?
It would be great if you don't have PN. Since you are comfortable most of time, it seems pretty risky to do anything invasive because you sure wouldn't want to get worse.cwb125 wrote: I hold maybe a 10% hope I do not have PN. It seems like my pain is wider on my body and less severe than most people. If I just wear shorts, I am comfortable 99.9% of the time.
The PN comes off of S2, S3, and S5. You can potentially have a radiculopathy higher up in the spine that causes similar symptoms as PN, so it can be a bit of a trick determining where the pain is originating from. That's why diagnostics, imaging, history, and clinical exam are all so important to take into account.cwb125 wrote: While I have these disk problems, none of the nerves that service the pudendal nerve go that low. I think it is L3, maybe L4? If I have some sort of cluneal nerve/piriformis syndrome problem, then those nerves, potentially, go that low. If I can some treatment for that, then maybe I can prove I don't have PN/have a milder version of it/I have a problem with my bladder muscle rather than PN, as at least two urologists have told me my bladder muscle does not work correctly when rotating between urination and semen production. The problem is, however, most treatments of L5 nerve roots, or anything similar, lead to spinal fusion.
Re: Piriformis Syndrome?
I thought my problems stemmed from piriformis syndrome too at first. Since then, I am fairly confident that I have SIJ dysfunction and I wonder if that may also explain your symptoms. I, too, have lower back pain, mostly on the left side. It increases with bending, sitting, walking/standing too long. Pain spreads into the glute/hip and a bit in the back of the thigh. I also have bladder symptoms and have noticed greater urgency when the back pain is worse. Peter Dornan is an Australian physiotherapist who has helped many patients with PN and focuses on SIJ dysfunction as a likely cause for PN. He has a book "So you've got pelvic pain...here's how to manage it" that I've been reading. If the SIJ ligaments have been stressed/under increased tension, then fibrotic scar tissue can form that results in changes to the mechanics of the pelvic girdle (pelvic girdle dysfunction). As a result, the ligaments may put pressure on the pudendal nerve, irritating/compressing/damaging it. His approach is to strengthen the SIJ through particular musculoskeletal exercises, but he also endorses pelvic floor physio, etc, in the event other factors are at play. In my experience (so far), it seems to be a combination of SIJ dysfunction and overuse of small gluteal muscles (inc obturators) and the pelvic floor which I had been using as compensation for weak larger gluteal muscles (likely occurring from too much sitting). A google search of the relationship between SIJ dysfunction and urinary urgency brings up a lot of interesting material. I'm only 6 months into my PN journey, so still learning, but hoped this might help you in some way.
Re: Piriformis Syndrome?
Bowerbird, thanks for that info. I've heard good things about Peter Dornan.
Maybe it's possible to have piriformis syndrome and SIJ dysfunction? I have been told I have both.
Violet
Maybe it's possible to have piriformis syndrome and SIJ dysfunction? I have been told I have both.
Violet
PNE since 2002. Started from weightlifting. PNE surgery from Dr. Bautrant, Oct 2004. Pain now is usually a 0 and I can sit for hours on certain chairs. No longer take medication for PNE. Can work full time and do "The Firm" exercise program. 99% cured from PGAD. PNE surgery was right for me but it might not be for you. Do your research.
Re: Piriformis Syndrome?
Thank you so much! I will review this material and respond to you, hopefully, fairly soon.Bowerbird wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 2:31 am I thought my problems stemmed from piriformis syndrome too at first. Since then, I am fairly confident that I have SIJ dysfunction and I wonder if that may also explain your symptoms. I, too, have lower back pain, mostly on the left side. It increases with bending, sitting, walking/standing too long. Pain spreads into the glute/hip and a bit in the back of the thigh. I also have bladder symptoms and have noticed greater urgency when the back pain is worse. Peter Dornan is an Australian physiotherapist who has helped many patients with PN and focuses on SIJ dysfunction as a likely cause for PN. He has a book "So you've got pelvic pain...here's how to manage it" that I've been reading. If the SIJ ligaments have been stressed/under increased tension, then fibrotic scar tissue can form that results in changes to the mechanics of the pelvic girdle (pelvic girdle dysfunction). As a result, the ligaments may put pressure on the pudendal nerve, irritating/compressing/damaging it. His approach is to strengthen the SIJ through particular musculoskeletal exercises, but he also endorses pelvic floor physio, etc, in the event other factors are at play. In my experience (so far), it seems to be a combination of SIJ dysfunction and overuse of small gluteal muscles (inc obturators) and the pelvic floor which I had been using as compensation for weak larger gluteal muscles (likely occurring from too much sitting). A google search of the relationship between SIJ dysfunction and urinary urgency brings up a lot of interesting material. I'm only 6 months into my PN journey, so still learning, but hoped this might help you in some way.
Just wondering, do you have pain after sex? Not to be gratuitous or brag, but my sex functions work perfectly. After sex, however, I have a great deal of pain. While I understand if you do not feel comfortable disclosing that, it might be good to compare notes.
Re: Piriformis Syndrome?
I just started reading about the SI Joint and saw something I wanted to ask you about. Have you ever tried the nerve ablation? I am pretty sure I tried it with not much success. While I am not sure where you live, I know a great doctor in Texas who does a lot of regenerative medicine that helped me with my back issues. While he tried to help me with my pudendal-like stuff, he does more back, shoulders, arms, legs. etc. PM me, and I will give you his name.
Re: Piriformis Syndrome?
cwb125 wrote: I hold maybe a 10% hope I do not have PN. It seems like my pain is wider on my body and less severe than most people. If I just wear shorts, I am comfortable 99.9% of the time.
Would "doing anything invasive" include spinal fusion surgery? Can that procedure cause/make pudendal issues worse than they already are?Violet M wrote:It would be great if you don't have PN. Since you are comfortable most of time, it seems pretty risky to do anything invasive because you sure wouldn't want to get worse.