Health Organization for Pudendal Education

Gigas wrote:"Not much," or none?

Not much. Several PNE docs (Dellon & Aszmann, Robert, etc.) have published data re. the surgeries they're doing. I'm not going to take the time to find links to the papers here, but they're easily findable using the search function in the top right corner.

Gigas wrote:Pelvis Stressly wrote:
Yeah, but can't all the exact same criticism be made towards PNE Surgery... what data does exist doesn't exactly boast great results, not tons of encouraging anecdotal reports, expensive, etc.)? Plus, add to that 'invasive/potentially risky'.

The answer is: yes. But that doesn't say anything good about the Wise/Anderson protocol.

Agreed (I didn't make that claim anywhere in my post!).

Gigas wrote:You may be right (I don't know the papers to which you refer) but I am skeptical.

Again, the articles do exist. They're few & far between & the data isn't great (small sample sizes being one glaringly obvious problem), but I'd say they at least serve in bumping the amount of data available from the "none" into the "not much" category (as discussed). For starters, here's a link to the two Dellon/Aszmann studies on their dorsal branch decompression surgery (one is on cadavers, the other on a small group of actual patients). They were posted by pianogal, halfway down the following page... http://www.pudendalhope.info/forum/view ... &start=110

Gigas wrote:typically each doctor has his one favorite explanation, and he starts (and often ends) with that.

Agreed. Typically a carpenter will want to use a hammer to fix every problem, as the saying goes.

Gigas wrote:The Internet tends to create groups who re-inforce each other's ideas about what's real partly for that reason.

Also agreed. And I'd go further actually & say that these 'camps' of thought that form have a tendency to develop animosity towards each other (eg. Wise/Anderson types vs. PNE surgery supporters), which often gets in the way of the real (& only, as far as I'm concerned) objective of finding a fix (I think a lot of good info from both sides...to stick w. my Wise vs. PNE example for a moment...ends up getting overlooked by supporters of both camps simply for 'political' reasons).

Gigas wrote:I misinterpreted you, sorry.

No offense meant.

None taken.

Gigas wrote:but those diagnoses were wrong, and I was fortunate to find my answer elsewhere.

What was your answer (if you don't mind me asking)?

My response to all of the above is: And?

You're reiterating what I stated in my initial post in this thread. Namely, if we're going to be skeptical about the Wise-Anderson protocol, we should be consistent w. that skepticism, and also aim it towards PNE & the surgeries associated with it. And when we do, we find there's not much data there, what data exists isn't particularly convincing (hence my comment re. insufficient sample sizes), and the anecdotal 'evidence' is also pretty underwhelming.

At that point you came in and asked me if there was really 'not much' data, or in fact 'none''. I responded by saying 'not much, but what little there is, isn't particularly good.' When you then skimmed the few studies I directed you to, your conclusion was, 'these aren't good'. And to that I say, 'I know, that was my point!'

Which leads us to this...

Gigas wrote:Seems like an awfully slender reed on which to base a surgery decision.

Agreed. Unfortunately though, there's not a lot of reliable info available around any of this stuff. But when you're desperate, as many of us here are, sometimes your only resort is to make decisions based on the few slender reeds that are available.

So, Gigas, your answer is that there is no answer ?

Don

Gigas,
Thanks for laying all your cards on the table. Your story is certainly intriguing and food for thought. I know I don't have stones because those are easy to see on an abdominal x-ray. I am an x-ray tech and see them all the time. My question here, if you don't mind, is how these hernia surgeons were able to diagnose you and proceed with surgery and know where to cut. I do barium exams everyday looking for intestinal polyps. I will be seeing Dr. Hibner this Wednesday and I will certainly raise this possibility with him. Thanks for your input.

Don

Thank you for the informative and entertaining post, Gigas! How can an inguinal hernia cause acute pain in the rectum? Wouldn't an inguinal hernia be obvious to an experienced registered massage therapist? Did your therapist detect yours?

GIgas,

When you say "pain worse when sitting", do you mean pain in the groin or pain in the butt? Is it documented somewhere that pain in the butt when sitting could be a hernia? Can you direct me to a source that says this?

Gigas wrote:we have no fundamental disagreement that I know about. I don't mean to suggest any superiority over anyone here.

I haven't taken anything you've said here that way.

If I'm understanding your position correctly, it's that PNE doesn't exist at all as a condition (& as such, the corresponding decompression surgeries are really only tilting at windmills)? If so, we're not in agreement there (obviously, since I chose to do the surgery), and we've discussed this somewhat already in PMs, but I do still think you raise a lot of good points. Namely, there are a lot of conditions out there that can cause the symptoms many of us here experience, people owe it to themselves to investigate these other possibilities (hernia or otherwise) before jumping into any sort of surgery, and skepticism is never a bad thing in science (my dad's a scientist actually, so that concept was ingrained into me from an early age!).

Glad you're sharing your experience here...interesting thread to say the least!

Gigas,
I would also like to thank you for sharing your experience although it's hard to question the motivations of Dr. Hibner or to discount PNE altogether even though it was not true in your case. I read up some on inguinal hernias and they said reoccurence of pain post-op was not uncommon so even though I am not a doctor I would urge you to stay off that bicycle seat (just my opinion) and take up some other form of exercise. I do not wish this pelvic pain on any fellow human being. I had a scrotal ultrasound at UCSF to confirm varicoceles mentioned by Dr. Potter and they did an embolization even though they didn't detect any on the ultrasound. This had no effect on my pain. I am assuming the ultrasound would have detected an inguinal hernia. I will however make an appointment with the oldest craggiest GI surgeon I can find at UCSF when I get back from Arizonia. I am nothing if not openminded when it comes to figuring this shit out,

Don

Thanks again, Gigas, for sharing your experience and for finding those references to hernias and pelvic pain. It is much appreciated.