Vascular entrapments

[shawnmellis]

I'm now confused again because Dr. Dellon has never heard of anybody doing a ligation and resection of enlarged blood vessels (Varices) in this area of the dorsal nerve and does not recommend it, and said he could take care of the veins during surgery if they were a problem by removing them, so I guess I am sticking with the dorsal nerve surgery now. I wish there was more evidence to support this possible Varices as the cause, but so far I have not been able to get a whole lot. Oh well . I will let you know if I find anything new out.

[Violet M]

Interesting, Shawn, that the varices are distal to but not proximal to the urogential diaphragm. Makes you wonder if there is something putting pressure on the veins to cause them to bulge distally -- like some sort of compression.

[shawnmellis]

Hi everyone, Varices have now been a confirmed cause of pudendal compression. I need to tell you all something VERY important about embolisation and sclerotherapy for Varices in the Pudendal Nerve. Dr. Dellon and Dr. Aszmann do not recommend either of these. They both said they recommend ligation and resection to get completely rid of the Varices because the other methods have proven unsuccessfull. The reason is sclerotherapy can cause more scar tissue and embolisation does not always get completely get rid of the varices and it can stll come back which explains why sometimes these do not work. This is according to Dr. Aszmman and Dr. Dellon. Here are more emails from Aszmann and explanation of this by Aszmann below and the rest of his emails below which I need to share with you all.
Dr. Asmann used to work with Dr. Dellon at Johns Hopkins Hospital and developed with Dr. Dellon the dorsal branch of pudendal nerve decompression. He now does surgery in Austria but speaks perfect english. I have talked with him many times He does not recommend emobolisation or sclerotherapy and neither does Dr. Dellon. Instead he did ligation and resection of the varices. He said, and I agree, that this is the best way to completely get rid of the blood vessels and to make sure they don't come back. I strongly feel that those with varices who get embolisation or another way to fix it by interventional radiologists sometimes are not helped still because you have to have a trained nerve surgeon who can ligate and resect those veins so close to the tiny nerves in the pelvis and right now only Dr. Dellon and Dr. Aszmann can do this. Now, I'm not saying Varices is always the cause, because you can have compression of a nerve by some other problem like scar tissue or other, all I 'm saying is that Varices are now, even though it may be rare for the time being, at least are a proven cause of compression of the pudendal nerve and not just pudendal nerves but many other nerves. I will post below my email from Dr, Aszmann a world renowned nerve decompressioin surgeon who explained it to me below

1st Email Question from me
Hi Dr. Aszmann, Have you ever operated on somebody with varices (pelvic congestion) in the pelvis or dorsal branch of pudendal nerve in which case the varices (enlarged veins) was the only cause of the compression of the dorsal branch of the nerve or another nerve in the pelvis? I'm just curious. Thanks
Dr. Aszmann's response Yes- About two years ago a man from Rome and recently a woman. Both had the diagnosis “venous congestion in the urogenital diaphragm” in their MRI report. Intraoperatively the woman had varicous veins and a rather large pudendal artery bilaterally. The man had a very bulbous ischiocavernous body on the affected side- the other being almost normal. In men the space available is very tiny, since the canal of the dorsal nerve is anatomically tight already. The woman had tried intravasal application of a foam to obliterate the venous network- to no avail hoewever. I have operated her just before the summer and she is fine so far. The man I have not heard of after a 3 month follow-up phone call.
2nd Email from Dr AszmannThere is many other nerve compressions caused by blood vessels in other body parts. Some of them even have a name. In the upper extremity the radial nerve can be compressed by prominent vessels- if so these vessels are then called “the leash of Henry” Also in the tarsal tunnel for the tibial nerve this is known cause of nerve entrapment.

3rd Email Question from MeHi Dr Aszmann I'm curious if you think it would be a good idea to
try embolisation of a varices by dorsal branch of pudendal nerve prior
to surgery? If you are too busy now to have time to read the rest of
this I understand. I know you are very busy and you can read this
later when you are in the mood to read a book instead of an email
LOL Just kidding.

I'm curious why your method of ligatiing and resecting varices seems
to have worked better than embolisation of them or sclerotherapy of
them as far as getting rid of them and improving nerve pain.
According to published reports embolisation or sclerotherapy have not
been too successful at less than 40 percent success.

Do you think ligation and resection is a better way than embolisation
or sclerotherapy for treatment and why do you suppose that most
doctors do not ligate and resect it instead? Is it because they are
near the nerves and most surgeons are poorly trained on surgery around
these nerves or they have never tried it before?

Those with varices here in the USA have tried embolisation or
sclerotherapy with no success yet. It may also be possible that
because in some cases they may have an entrapment causing the varices
and that would also explain the low success rate if they just embolize
it or sclerose it instead of decompressing the nerve along side of the
vein.

I also heard sclerotherapy can cause scar tissue around the nerve.
Does ligation and resection get rid of the problem vein better because
you can see where the vein is compressing the nerve in surgery where
as in embolisation or sclerotherapy you can not see which parts of the
vein are compressing the actual nerves? Just wanted some food for
thought because the truth is somewhere out there and anything is
possible.

I help a lot of patients on the pudendalhope.com website and other
support groups on Faceboolk every day and I am the leader of a large
Facebook PNE support group and email and talk with PNE patients all
the time. The patients I know with PNE have been talking much more
about varices recently now since there have been an increase in
patients seeing Varices in their pudendal nerve area recently over the
past year from their Dr Potter MRIs since she is probably doing more
pudendal mris now because of her popularity here. She now takes much
longer to get to see her because she is so busy with PNE patients.Take
care.

Dr. Aszmann's email response:
I do not think it is a good idea because so far it has not provided good
results. Surgical resection gets rid of the entire vascular network and it
Is virtually impossible that these will return. In men I do not have so
many postsclerotic PNE patients, seems to be more present in female but -
and there it is to no avail.

OCA

[davemon1953]

Just tried coil embolism to defeat PNE symptoms. So far, after one week, no improvement. The feeling from my IR was it was low risk and may work. I did have a mess of varicose veins, the size of a quarter in the pelvic area. Will update this later.